Brant – To me there is only one thing that is knowable. I am aware (or what is called “I am”). More accurately, I would say that there is awareness since I don’t know that it is mine. There is absolutely nothing else that I can say without doubt that is true. All of the rest is possibly only confusion based upon the training that I received from an early age that told me that I am an individual person in a world of objects. Am I an individual person in a world of objects? I don’t know if I am or not, but I don’t feel that I am. But that is a belief based upon an inner sense. You know, as in ideas that cannot be proven?
Why can I not trust those ideas or anything other that the fact that there is awareness? Because I know that I cannot trust my senses. They are simply organic organs which crudly gather sensations of energy particles and transfer those to a brain which interprets the input based upon past interpretations which were programmed by parents, teachers, religious leaders and others that were also presumably, similarly limited in perception. In other words I feel that I cannot trust anything but the fact the there is awareness.
However, that does not make me act as if my previous training is worthless. I still interact with apparent others similarly to how I was trained to. And as best I can. It is just that now I do not believe any of it. Except for the single fact that I can prove, that there is awareness. Does that make any sense? This is just what I see. It’s why I often find myself saying “I know nothing”.
Friend – Well, surely doubt isn’t the goal, right? Did freedom ever result from doubt?
Your senses don’t tell you that you have free will or that concepts have an absolute foundation or that there is some kind of a volitional person inside that body or even that there are objects ‘out there’ somewhere or that time is real. These are all assumptions that have nothing to do with the senses. Questioning those assumptions is the process of becoming conscious. S/A is about questioning, not throwing up your hands in doubt.
You don’t know that you know nothing. That’s another assumption. You can’t know that you can’t know. Do you see that you can’t get there from here?
Brant – Except for the fun of a good conversation, I don’t talk about goals and freedom. These senses that we share appear to tell me what they seem to tell ever character on this planet. To me, talk about free will, persons, objects and time are just talk based upon a series of thought processes, sitting on top of beliefs that I cannot prove to be true or claim as my own and no longer care to try.
My point is that I accept that what this body’s senses are telling this mind for it to categorize all appears to be happening, but that I no longer buy into it as mine. My life, my career, my family, my friends, my toys, on and on. I accept none of it. I don’t deny it either, but I have no desire to accept anything as either true of false. I am satisfied accepting that it is a non-issue.
I sense that you may be assuming that I am in a similar place that you may be, with the same series of logic operating. But I don’t have any further questions about things. I already know what I said in my previous response that I trust nothing but that there is awareness. Awareness is obvious. None of the rest of it is.
I know that I know nothing because I cannot prove anything to any level of logical proof. Everything rests on what appears to be lies that have been accepted as truth for millenia. Except that it is obvious that there is an awareness of it all. There is no doubt of that for me. But I’m also going to say that if you find out anything that I missed, I want to be the first to know. But I won’t hold my breath.
Maybe you cannot get there from here, but I am not trying to get anywhere at all. I’m not finished. I still have challenges, but I see clearly what must be done with those and will simply wait for clarity and the processing to be concluded. And that’s not a goal either.
Friend – That’s not knowing that you know nothing, it’s just doubting everything (except awareness) Knowing requires actually seeing that it’s all made up. There’s no doubt involved in this, nor is there any actual knowledge involved, nor does it has anything to do with logic or proof.
This IS the process, but you’re backing away from it because you’re waiting for the process to happen.
Brant – Semantics aside, It appears certain that everything is false. I have already seen how it has happened in this present experience. However, since this still involves a brain and attendant peripheral sensors which were programmed by various questionable forces, I fail to see how anyone could possibly prove that it’s all made up or conversely, that it is truth. The fact that awareness is seems to be what remains. Do you see anything else?
As far as process, I don’t know what you’re doing, but I have learned that I do not need to do anything other than to be an astute observer and accept what I find. It’s worked well so far. If it ain’t broken… But I do appreciate your challenging this. Thanks.
Brant – As a final observation, it appears that this conversation might be relegated to the category of redundant. Apparently any realistic dialogue which encompasses more than the concept that awareness is, may be worthless. All of the rest of it seems to incorporate physiological thought processes which also may be worthless, due to the limitations of physical/mental functioning. Thus placed into the realm of beliefs, concepts, ideas, or dare I say it… religion.
Due to indoctrination by environmental factors, both with and without our acceptance, it seems that any conversation which includes what-ifs is doomed to be cast into the same questionable category. Again I ask, how can we possibly know any reality beyond awareness is?
I avidly await any response.
Friend – As long as what is being observed is the contents of mind, that’s all that can be seen. Mind cannot dispense with it’s own beliefs. In trying to dissolve them, it can’t avoid being mired in it’s own imaginary beliefs about the validity of experience or the importance of proof or the knowing that one is knowing nothing, or the conclusion that one can do nothing and therefore should do precisely that.
Brant – Ah. we have a concensus.
Friend – It’s redundant because mind is stuck in a self referencing loop. My observation is that there are two ways to make progress; either run like hell or stand still as a statue. This meandering down the path critiquing the wildlife IS a bit silly.
Brant – I’m glad it’s working for you man. Keep it up!